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tv   All in America Bernie Sanders in Trump Country  MSNBC  December 23, 2016 3:00pm-4:01pm PST

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on. thank you very much. i appreciate it. >> have a great end of the year. >> stay with us throughout the hour. that's all for this special year-end edition of "mtp daily." you can watch us every weeknight at 5:00 p.m. right here on msnbc. sundays, of course, on the network. happy holidays, happy new year, merry christmas, happy hanukkah from all of us at "mtp daily." bye-bye. when it was all said and done -- >> we have seen a brand-new way of looking at and thinking about this electoral map. >> what was solid blue for a generation -- >> this is a white working class path to the presidency. >> turned red overnight. >> we won michigan, pennsylvania, and we won wisconsin. >> and though hillary clinton won the national popular vote by more than 2 1/2 million people, in the end, just 80,000 votes across three states was enough for trump. tonight, we return to the state that put the republican over the top, with the senator who won wisconsin in the primary looking for answers. >> there are a lot of people, out of desperation, like, i'm
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hurting, aisle in pain. i am worried about my kids. this guy says he's going to do something for me, i'm going to give him a shot. this is "all in america," bernie sanders in trump country. good evening from the uaw 72 in kenosha, wisconsin. we're calling it trump country. do you folks think this is trump country? >> no! >> that may be true in this crowd, but for the first time since 1984, wisconsin voted for a republican for president, and in many ways, the story of wisconsin is a story of 2016. the at a time flipping to trump after voting for president obama twice. after election day, trump's wisconsin margins stood at just 22,617 votes, about a quarter of the capacity of lambeau field where the packers play. we're here in kenosha county, which is the story of wisconsin. this county has not voted for a republican president since 1972. but according to the statewide recount initiated by jill stein, donald trump beat hillary
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clinton here by just 237 votes. there are more people than that right here in this room. we've got trump voters in the audience tonight and clinton voters and people who didn't even vote. and we're here to have a frank and open conversation about what happened in this election, where we are as a country, and where we go from here. now, donald trump is not the only candidate who beat hillary clinton in wisconsin. we also have vermont senator bernie sanders, who says we can all stand to do more listening in communities like this. please join me in welcoming senator sarpds. good to see you. have a seat. >> thank you. this is awful intimate. >> very close, very close. one of the things i think has been interesting after the election, right, this thing is so close. 80,000 votes across three states
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that everybody plausibly has an argument for what's definitive, right? because it was so close. i want to hear your theory of the case when you say, you have to give someone the bernie sanders theory of the case why this election turned out the way that it did, what's your theory of the case? >> well, my theory of the case is there's a lot of pain in this country. a lot of pain in wisconsin. for the last 40 years, the middle class in this country has been disappearing. we have massive levels of income and wealth inequality, here in kenosha, in wisconsin, and vermont. companies shut down, move to china, move to mexico, paying people a fraction of the wages they pay in this country. there are enormous economic problems facing the middle class in this country and the media doesn't talk about them, most politicians don't talk about them them, and that's why we're here today, to have a frank discussion of, a, where we are, how we got here, and where we're going to go in the future.
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>> here's my question. when you talk about this 40 years of this, which i think is a good time frame. you start to look at what happens right around the 1970s, a real shift in the economy, away from middle class towards the 1%, if that's the case, why was it this year? right, when people talk about factories moving overseas, that's been going on for years. barack obama won a state like, he won kenosha twice. you had bill clinton who was, you know, a real proponent of free trade, winning two elections in a row. if those are the trends that drove this outcome, why did it all erupt this year. >> i think we'll hear from people who know the answer better than i do. but ultimately, many people are saying, enough is enough. they're wondering why in the richest country in the history of the world, so many people are struggling economically. why people can't afford health care or child. and by the way, why we have so
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much income and wealth inequality. nobody here, i suspect, thinks it is appropriate that the top 1/10 of 1% now owns almost as much wealth as the bottom 90%. anybody think that makes sense? >> no. >> anybody think it makes sense that 52% of all new income is going to the top 1%? >> no. >> i don't think people do. and they're sitting there and they're saying, we don't want more of the old same-old, same-old. trump comes along, i, a multi-billionaire, i don't pay any taxes, i've got companies in turkey and mexico and china, but i am going to stand up to the economic establishment. i'm going to stand up to the political establishment. i'm going to take them all on. and i think a lot of people responded, okay, we'll give this guy a shot. >> we were talking to some folks i'll bring in and out a little bit, folks who live here and voted for trump. and one of the things they talked about is how much he liked the way that he communicated. you know, obviously, he said things that created tremendous controversy, offense, real, i
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think, in some cases, real genuine pain for some folks, muslim americans in this country, particularly. but there's a sense that he was, he was violating some set of manners that shouldn't exist. what do you make of this? >> i think that's true. i think he said he will not be politically correct. he said some outrageous and offensive things, but people are sick of the same old rhetoric and they believe he was speaking from his heart and willing to take on everybody. >> what do you think of the political correctness? what does that mean to you? >> what it means is you have a set of talking points, which have been poll tested and focus group tested and that's what you're saying rather than what's really going on. and often, what you are not allowed to say are things which offend very, very powerful people. for years and years, we have been told by republicans and
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many democrats that our trade policy was a great idea. that it was working for america. well, you know what? the american people don't believe it. they think there's something wrong, when just with permanent normal trade relations with china and the mexican free trade agreement, we have lost some 4 million decent-paying jobs. the american people, i think, want candidates and politicians to have the guts to stand up to the billionaire class and start representing the middle class and working families of this country. i don't think it's more complicated than that. >> let me ask you this. let me ask the audience for a second. when you hear "political correctness," okay, do you think about trade policies? raise your hand if that's what you're thinking about when you hear "political correctness." when you hear "political correctness," do you think about the way you are or are not allowed to talk about certain groups of americans? so it seems to me, tt was part of it, too, right? he was going after the chivalrous, these consensus
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things, but when we talk about political incorrectness or rules about not being a jerk. >> and he was talking about the media. the people that think the media reflects the reality of american society. so that's one on you, chris. >> well, i'm not trying to score points. my point here is, though -- >> i understand that. >> but my point is these things are intertwined. he is, if he's violating taboos that we think are taboos that should be violated, he was violating taboos that a lot of folks, i'll put myself in them, think we should keep. the taboos of how we think about women or people of color or other religions. >> i think that's true. and i think some of that is unfortunate. because i half to believe one of the arguments as to why trump won is the belief that most of or many of his supporters are sexist or racist or home nobodies. i happen to believe that's not the case. i think what he did say is, you
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know what, there is a lot of pain in this country. people are scared and people are worried. one example, right now, 50% of older workers 55 to 64, you know how much must be they have in the bank as they enter retirement, do you know how much money they have in the bank? zero! people are scared to death of retirement. so i think the answer is, he said. and i think his main success story is all across what i will stand up to the establishment, whether it's the political establishment, the media establishment, the economic establishment. i happen to think he won't do that, but be that as it may, we'll discuss that tonight. i think that was his major argument. people were tired of status quo politics, he broke through that. >> how do you square that with the way that you think about and the way that voters think about barack obama's presidency? which he's got a 59% approval rating right now. you've said, look, there are a lot of things he didn't do sufficiently, but generally, you
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think he's a good president. one of the great paradoxes, i even think, how many people in this room feel good about barack obama? think he's a good president? all right, okay, i will note, this is not a scientific cross-sample of the voters of kenosha, as much as i love all the people in this room and thank you for coming, but there is a real distance between that 59% approval rating and what happened in this election. >> well, i think you've got two things, all right? question, again, unscientifically, are we better off economically today than we were when obama first came in? okay. that is, okay, most people think yes. >> some think no. >> i think the overwhelming evidence is that we are. we were losing 800,000 jobs a month when obama first came in. we're better off, i think. most people would agree. but on the other hand, despite that, the middle class continues to decline. so you thought, yeah, we're better off than we were eight years, but millions of people are hurting and they are scared to death that their kids will
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have a lower standard of living than they do. and that brings out a whole lot of anxiety. >> and we're here at the local 72, an amazing facility, in some ways a testament to what kenosha was in the sort of heyday of automanufacturing that happened here. up next, we'll bring in a panel of trump supporters to talk with the senator. don't go anywhere. >> the senator said you wanted an argument. what do you think of the idea of free college tuition? >> that's the moment i stopped listening to anything coming out of your mouth, because it is so absurd.
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kenosha made things. that is the legacy of my generation and the generations prior to mine. we made things. we made cars. we made mattresses here. we made men's clothing here. we made fire engines here. it was the identity of our community. we made stuff and we were darned
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proud of it. >> on the shores of lake michigan, between chicago and milwaukee, kenosha, wisconsin, a city and a region that flourished in the heyday of american history. >> this was a manufacturing community. we made things. this community was built on the hands and backs of working people, who came to work in those factories. >> back in 1902, kenosha started making cars, beginning with the jeffrey rambler. nash motors bought the plant 14 years later and by the 1920s, it was the biggest employer in kenosha and the jobs just kept getting better. >> largely due to the efforts of organized labor in the community, jobs that were low-paying factory jobs became good-paying factory jobs. factory workers suddenly in the 1950s got to a position where they could make a good living. they could enter the middle class. >> in the 1950s, the company was
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called american motors. workers were making good money and iconic american cars. >> rembrandt american is your kind of car. >> reporter: by the 1960s, american motors employed 14,000 workers in kenosha and accounted for over 43% of the city's total employment. but in the 1970s, the company started to have problems. >> the company plans to lay off 1,000 employees for one week and will shut down all operations for three more weeks. >> in 1987, chrysler bought american motors and the very next year, they stopped making car in kenosha. >> chrysler is leaving town. so are 5,500 jobs. >> it's going to hurt everybody. drive a lot of people out of business, a lot of people just bought new chrysler cars and they bought new houses, thinking they had jobs for three to five years. >> the loss of 5,500 jobs to a city the size of kenosha is equivalent to losing a half
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million jobs in new york city. >> chrysler did keep making car engines in kenosha, but closed that plant in 2010. it was torn down in 2013. >> the plant's all gone. there's a big empty lot. and i guess you look at that big empty lot and say, there's a challenge there. >> there are still jobs in kenosha. in fact, the unemployment rate is below the national average, but the jobs today are very different. >> most of the employees in the manufacturing sector were unionized. they had good benefits, they had good solid salaries. and what's happened after this transition is the newer jobs, which were very grateful for, aren't paying as well as the manufacturing jobs were. and i think there's a real political consequence if somebody wants to know what happened in the election from a month ago, they need to only drive down 52nd street in kenosha and look at those
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hundred plus acres of empty space that represent both what was in kenosha and the hopes and dreams of the future of kenosha as it rebuilds. >> all right. we are back here in kenosha. as i said before, you know, kenosha county went for donald trump, the president-elect in this election for 237 votes, less than the amount of people in this room. we want to introduce you to some folks who voted for donald trump. i want to introduce you to richard who voted for barack obama in 2008. jamie, the divorced mom of two, holding down multiple jobs. she believes that trump will bring back jobs. her son backed bernie sanders. we have with us gayle sparks, an electronic technician, her husband is unemployed due to disability. didn't vote in 2012. and thought it was important to come out and vote in this election. and matt is a longtime
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republican. matt, you were nodding your head and the senator was too. you're a longtime union guy and a longtime republican, which is not always something that goes together. how important do you think organized labor is to a strong middle class? >> the grassroots is important. the leadership in the unions has been lacking. and the grassroots guy, unions are important, up to a point. and i think the unions have lost their way over the last 20 years. they don't represent the people like they used to. and that's what's changed. but the people are still important. >> what does it mean to you when you think about the decline -- i mean, i look at this place and i think, between the outsourcing that's happened, the jobs that have left, the decline of unions, it's hard to imagine being able to build a place like this today. >> it was sad to see the union -- you know, i've worked at snap-on for 30 years. they closed a plant here and moved to milwaukee and i didn't go. 30 years is enough. and it was sad to see the jobs go. you know, i lived in kenosha my whole life.
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so -- >> richard, you voted for bernie sanders in the primary here in wisconsin. you voted for -- you voted for donald trump in the primary, but you said that you voted down-ticket for democrats on election day. >> yes, i did. >> and you're generally a democratic voter, but this time you voted for trump. why'd you vote for donald trump? >> basically because he wasn't hillary. >> have people heard that a lot, among people they've talked to? >> yes. yep. >> would you have supported senator sanders if he was the nominee? >>es, iould have. >> what do you think of that senator sanders? >> well, i appreciate it. [ laughter and applause ] but, chris, as you know, we won kenosha pretty handily and won the state of wisconsin in the primary. and thing the message that we brought forth is that it is time to credit an economy that works for all of us and not just the 1%. it's time to support organized
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labor and make it easier for workers to get into unions. it is time, and i would like to raise this issue, maybe we can get into it in a moment, we are the only major country on earth that doesn't guarantee health care to all people as a right. how many people think we should move in that direction? >> let me ask you folks up there. jamie, when you think about your voting, senator sanders speaking about guaranteeing health care, is that the sort of thing you're interested in? >> that's great, but how are we going to pay for that? and how is it -- right now if you try to go online and look for insurance, it is a massive disaster. you could spend two hours on there and you have no idea what to look for. >> right. >> also, for me, being as what i do for a living, i'm loucky, i' quite healthy, i'm look at insurance premiums that were
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$300, $400 a month and a $10,000 deductible. that's ridiculous! you know, i -- how can someone afford that? >> dale, you express frustration with the way things are going and you're someone who didn't -- who wasn't psyched about other candidate in 2012 but felt strongly about coming out this time around. what changed? >> it was the pact that number one, i think the country needed a bit of a change. they had put a lot of professional politicians in that office. trump seemed more of him being the business man. what's the country full of? business or talk? >> what do you think about that, senator? you're someone who's developed his life to public service? >> well, i don't -- i think you make a good point. i think what you're really saying is people are sick and tired of establishment politics,
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right? and they want somebody who says he's going to do something and cut through a lot of the crap. >> exactly. >> i understand that. matt, did you want to jump in? >> yeah, i agree. i liked trump from the beginning, because he just -- he was open and up-front with everybody and he talked to the people, pretty much like you did, too. and the people that i know, it was either donald trump or you on the other end. nothing in between. they didn't like any other candidates. that's from a grassroots point of view. >> you're talking about your union? >> well, just everybody. no matter who you talk to, they liked donald trump and they like bernie because they talk to the people. and everybody else is just g giving us a bunch of hogwash, just talking over us. >> richard, do you think that when we talk about the kinds of jobs that were in kenosha, do you see a future in which those come back? >> no. no. that day has come and gone.
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it's -- the industry in kenosha is so diversified now, whereas before, when it was just chrysler, it was just a one-trick pony, you know? >> do people feel like things are going to get better in kenosha? >> i'm optimistic enough to think that they are. i hope that they are. i'm pretty sure that they are. >> let me jump in. let me ask you a question and all the people that voted for trump. question, why has the middle class been in decline for the last 40 years? what do you think? does that have something to do with corporate greed? >> i think it -- [ applause ] i think it has to do with what kind of ceos are graduating from college and how they care. we had managers at snap-on tools that were the ceos that actually cared about people. howard brown from kenosha news cares about the people and the
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new ones don't. it has nothing to do with corporate greed, it's just greedy individuals. that are in the wrong position. >> you think the culture's changed? >> the culture's changed a lot. >> that's a good point. other reasons? why is the middle class been declining? why do we have so much incoming wealth inequality? >> because so many of our jobs are going overseas. >> okay. do all of you believe that our current trade policies, nafta have been a -- >> they're terrible. i thought that from the beginning. gap should never have been negotiated. they took 30 years to negotiate that behind closed door. nobody had a voice in it. >> is there a general consensus here that our trade policies have failed the american worker? [ applause ] >> well, i just want everybody to know, you're looking at a guy who voted against every one of these trade agreements and what
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was also clear to me is that the guy who is wrote these trade agreements wanted very much to have the opportunity to shut down in kenosha or in vermont and move to mexico and move to china, where they could pay people very low wages. you didn't need a ph.d in economics to figure that one out. >> right. >> so i gather that all of you would be sympathetic to a major rewrite of our current trade policies, demanding that corporate america start investing in this country and not just in low-wage countries around the world? >> definitely. definitely. >> good. [ applause ] good. second question, you got a lot of people, i'm sure, in kenosha, i know in my state of vermont, who cannot get by on the 10 or 11 bucks an hour they're making. should we raise the minimum wage to a living wage? >> no. [ applause ]
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>> all right, let's hear it. i want to go -- >> if there's dissent, i want to hear it. there were some nos. what do you thin >> okay, i don't know how you can take someone working at mcdonald's and pay them $15 an hour and not expect everything to go up around. obviously, food's going to have to go to up. if you want to paycheck workers for bagging groceries up to $12 -- okay, your groceries are going to have to go up. everything is going to have to go up. >> i want you to hold that thought, because there is dissent on this, although it's a very popular position. i want to bring in some more voters right after this break. stick around. we'll bring in another panel on response of what we just heard. don't go anywhere. >> trump posed a real threat to our existence in this country. and i say this as someone who's born and raised in milwaukee, wisconsin. >> i would never want to see anybody thrown out just because of their beliefs, or their -- i mean, that's awful. no. (war drums beating)
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we're here back in kenosha. and you know, jamie just made a point about the minimum wage which you hear a lot. hear it from voters and folks at think tanks the about, if you raise the minimum wage to, say, $15 an hour, you're just going to increase costs, right? and somebody's going to be paying for that. i'm curious if any of you folks here, you guys are all democrats. and john, you're a former union president. does that argument scan to you? >> first of all, one of the things i think people miss about
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raising the minimum wage, if the minimum wage goes up, everybody's wage goes up, because the floor is raised. and i think people miss that. they say, why shouldn't people at mcdonald's -- i hear that all the time, mcdonald's. it's not just people making the minimum wage. and people making the minimum wage are not just young people, they're people raising a family. >> but if everyone's wages go up, doesn't that make her argument even more salient. if everyone's wages go up, won't costs explode? >> i think it goes back to senator sanders' argument that income has shifted in this country to the top 1%, away from the rest of the people in this country. if you raise the minimum wage, that brings the income back to the people, takes it away from the 1%, and it gives people purchasing power now that they don't have. and it will help the economy. >> okay. you're shaking your head. you don't like this minimum wage argument? stand up. >> no.
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>> what's your name, sir? >> gabe. the minimum wage, yes, it is good, but the minimum wage, i believe, was meant to be for people with part-time jobs or going to school, trying to help out. now, when you have insurance, for instance, in the last couple of years with obamacare, well, i pay right now, me and my wife pay 40% of our income goes to insurance. that's what's bad. you increase the minimum wage, everybody is going to have to make more money. i'm retired. my wife is, what i would call semi-retired. she gets social security, but she has to work, just to pay for the insurance. and raising the minimum wage, what's it going to do for me? another thing that's maybe ho holding back on something else now about immigration, they were talking about illegal immigration. i'm an immigrant myself. but i can -- >> legally.
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>> i had to wait ten years in line for me to come in. >> let me get back to this minimum wage, senator. we're running an experiment right now. we have states that have done this. how important do you think it is, the results of a state like california, that have raised the minimum wage, considerably. >> and vermont has also raised the minimum wage and a number of states have. picking up on john's point, there has been over the last number of decades a massive shift of income and wealth to the top 1%. and if this country is going to survive economically, we've got to shift some of that money back to the middle class and working families. number two, if you make 7.25 or 8 bucks an hour, you're not going to go out and buy anything. you're not going to buy furniture, you're not going to take your family out to eat. and when you don't have that disposable income, you're not helping to create other people's jobs. and the third point i make, i very often hear that argument
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about the possibility of prices going up, but i don't hear that when you have ceos making 300 times salary of what their workers are making. >> we're going to take a quick break and be back with much more from kenosha, right after this. i find it interesting what three out of four of you are saying, yeah, he talked about that stuff, but it will never happen, we don't believe it will ever happen. why do you vote for somebody who, in a sense, is lying? ♪ see ya next year. this season, start a new tradition. experience the power of infiniti now, with leases starting at $319 a month. infiniti. empower the drive.
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hi, i'm richard lui following breaking news for you this hour. nbc news confirming actress carrie fisher suffering a heart attack while traveling on a plane to los angeles. united airlines say a passenger on that flight became unresponsive. sources say fisher was rushed to a local hospital after going into full cardiac arrest. she's best known for playing princess leia in the "star wars" films. we'll have more later here on msnbc. back now to "all in america: bernie sanders in trump country." >> all right, we're back here in kenosha. senator sanders is talking about free college education here. stand up for a second. tell me your name. >> mary magdelin moser. >> i saw you shaking your head.
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what do you think of free college tuition? >> that's the moment i stopped listening to anything coming out of your mouth, when you said that. because it is so absurd. you -- who is going to pay for it? why don't you address how college tuition has skyrocketed 6,000% since the 1980s? you can't have an industry where once you pass a seniority level, it is impossible to fire you. that's ridiculous. no other industry has that type of protection. that needs to go. tenure needs to go! >> no, i don't think tenure needs to go. >> i do. >> okay. but here is the point, okay. and it hasn't gone up 6,000%. it has gone up a lot. not 6,000%. so stick to the facts. but here is the issue, very simple issue. in the united states of america, mary, do you think all people, regardless of their income, all young people, should have an equal right to get a college
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education or should that only benefit the wealthy or upper middle class. >> i believe the way the united states works as it is today, where every single human being in the united states has the opportunity to go to college. i do not believe it is a right. and i do not believe that i should be expected to pay for not only my education and my children's but somebody else's as well. >> but mary, when we were losing at least $100 billion every single year because large multi-national corporations stash their money in the cayman islands and other tax havens, that's not you who's going to be asked to pay more in taxes. we have massive levels of income inequality. donald trump, a multi-billionaire, proudly told us, he doesn't pay a nickel in federal taxes. >> and why was jeffrey immelt barack obama's adviser? >> that's an interesting point. say that again. >> then why was jeffrey immelt,
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ceo of ge, who proudly declared he paid zero percent in corporate taxes, why did barack obama name him his chief economic adviser? >> you are damned right. that was a stupid thing to do. all right, so i'm not here -- you are right. by the way, jeffrey immelt, many, many years ago, got up before a group of people, you know what he said? he said, and i quote you, when i look at the future of general electric, one of the largest corporations in america, i see china, cha, china and china, all right? that was jeffrey immelt. and you are quite right. ge in a given year paid zero in federal income taxes. but my point is, in the wealthiest country in the history of the world, it is wrong to say that we -- we are the wealthiest. in terms of -- in terms of total wealth, we are. but the point is, in this country, with our wealth, i think it is grossly unfair that
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working class kids simply do not have the necessary income to get a college education. and i think we should do what german does and many other countries and say that when we talk about public education, we're not just talking about first grade through 12th grade, we're talking about college as well. >> i want to ask -- talk to you for a second. your producer -- might be producer spoke to you. your name is rema? >> yes. >> tell me your full name. >> rem ahmed. rema, i'm curious, there are a whole bunch of prisms to understand this election. we talk about manufacturing, we talk about the middle class, there are people who feel that really the driving force of donald trump was bigotry or was all kinds of sort of ways that he was able to scapegoat folks. and i'm curious what you think the sort of analysis is? >> yeah, i think that trump's campaign was a campaign of hate. i'm a community organizer and in
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the primary i was running a campaign down in illinois, was a bernie supporter, did switch over to hillary in the general election and it's because for me, for the communities that i'm a part of, or the community i want to be a part of, trump posed a real threat to our existence in this country. and i say this as someone who's born and raised in milwaukee, wisconsin. i'm a wisconsinite, i'm a midwesterner, i'an american, so, yeah. >> when you say "pose a real threat to the communities you're part of," what do you mean by that? >> i mean folks of color, i mean communities of immigrants. i mean, trump has talked about putting folks that look like me on a national registry. we're thinking japanese internment. and i'm also talking about other immigrant communities, communities that have benefited from dapa and doca. what are those communities going to do? are my friends and family members going to be deported?
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people who call this country home, is this what's going to happen? this is terrifying. and this as someone who has family members who voted for trump. this is something we tried not to talk about on thanksgiving, but it's scary to see, you know, to know that neighbors, family members, you know, may look past the threat that trump poses to our very livelihood, just because they wanted something different. >> reporter: i want you to respond. you're shaking your head. what do you make of that? >> let's ask everybody up here bhap with what rema is saying, trump won a whole lot of votes based on bigotry, trying to turn one person against the other. what do you think? >> no. he stirred a dialogue. there is not one perso in this room that would have allowed anything to happen about that. even in congress, that would not be acceptable to anybody.
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and he just started a dialogue and the dialogue has changed and none of that's ever going to happen. >> he's proposing a national registry. he's proposing removing daca -- >> you can't promote that. that's never going to pass. even if it went to the supreme court, i don't care, it would be thrown out. he can propose all he wants, it's got to go through our congress first. that's another buffer zone. >> do other people -- this is something i encountered a lot when i talked to trump voters, who would say very similar things. they would basically say, the things that he says are the worst things, like the muslim ban, for instance, that's just him talking smack, basically. and it's not going to happen. does that -- i'm course what you three think of that. or do you think, i hope he does that? >> no, i hope he does not do that. i would never want to see anybody thrown out just because
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of their beliefs or their -- i mean, that's awful. no. >> gayle? >> you know, to some extent, i'm hoping it is. being one that works in a factory and i have tried to finish my college degree to be in this factory, to do the job i'm doing, but because there's so much illegals in there, i can't get the pay i should get. >> so you think illegal -- undocumented immigrants are threatening your pay and you hope he does deport a lot of them? >> well, not including the fact, it's even been said on radio that a lot of them that get stopped don't pay their tickets, they go to mexico and hide. they get away with it. they don't pay their taxes. they go toexico and hide. and then come back. i've seen this. it's upsetting. >> senator, do you want to respond to that? >> well, did you want to -- richard, do you want to -- >> i think that a lot of what he says is just unimplementable rhetoric, just to gain attention
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and it would never be congressionally approved. >> well, as somebody who was in the congress, let me not -- i'm not quite sure that you're right. but i think that there's no question to my mind. and i find it interesting, what three out of four of you are saying is, yeah, he talked about that stuff, but it will never happen, we don't believe that it will ever happen. why do you vote for somebody who in a sense that is lying? >> he's starting a dialogue with the american people. and he used the media to get his point across and he's changed -- he wasn't lying, he started a dialogue. he voiced his opinion and he got
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feedback and addressed it as he went along. he knows as well as anybody in this room, you can't go after a group of people because of their religious beliefs. and i knew that right off the bat. but he was still up-front and he talked to the public. >> it's an interesting point. what you're saying is that you think and i think that what he was talking about was unconstitutional? that you've got a candidate for president of the united states talking about grossly unconstitutional things. >> well, look what our congress does. they pass up constitutional laws every day. >> can i ask one thing? >> yeah, please. >> two things. >> i might make it thre i'm sitting here and listening to all of this and, you know, she says, who's paying for this? right? who's paying for the medicaid? who's paying for the social security? who's paying for medicare? who? thank you. we are. now, have any of you seen down
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on streets that it seems as though we have become the silent minority and not the majority. >> what do you mean by that? >> how much have we been listened to, really? >> but who's the "we" when you say this? >> us people. >> who people? >> the people who need the medicare, the people who need the social security, who needs the help with the education. >> okay, but here's -- good point. let's see if we can go forward on this. i am assuming that you believe, correct me if i'm wrong, that we should not cut social security or medicare or medicaid. is that correct or not? >> yeah. i believe they shouldn't be cut. >> do you know who is now working very hard to try to do that? republicans in congress have a plan under the guise of saving medicare and saving social security, making devastating cuts. that's what the republicans are now trying to do. the other point that you made, which is a very -- i think you
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made or both of you have made it, actually, and that is, who's going to pay for this stuff? and that is a very fair point. what all of us should know is that over the last 25 years, there has been a massive transfer of wealth in this country from you to the top 1/10 of 1%. in other words, the middle class has shrunk and trillions of dollars have gone to the top 1/10 of 1%. do you think it's inappropriate to ask those people to start paying their fair share of taxes, so we can adequately fund medicaid and making in public colleges and universities tuition free. is that an unfair thing to ask. >> i don't think it's an unfair thing to ask. >> they got rich off us. >> that's right. >> so it's time they put back. >> okay. that's all i'm saying. >> we're going to take a quick break and we'll come back with much more from the crowd.
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don't go anywhere. there is some rhetoric coming from mr. trump which needless to say, disturbs me very, very much. his campaign, which was based on bigotry bothers me. this cabinet that he's appointing, it seems the major qualification is to have to be a billionaire. [ cough ]
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welcome back to our town hall with senator sanders here in kenosha. sir, i want to talk to you for a second. stand up for me.
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tell me your name. >> darryl modine. >> what do you do here? >> i'm the vice president for the league of national american citizens and have been quite involved in the get out to vote effort across the country. >> you know, folks talk about immigration in this country and obviously it was a front of mind issue. there's lots of plas people do really palpably feel like what's happening in the economy, they're having a harder and harder time and there's a set of folks coming in and are not having as hard a time or trying to get jobs and those jobs are undercutting their wages. that is something very near the surface of this election. how determinative was that, do you think, here? >> well, i think, i think there's a lot of concern, but i also think there was a lot of embellishment and a lot of confusion over what the facts really are here. i heard the young lady and i respect your views and opinions talk about the undocumented here. truth be told, only 3% of the u.s. population is undocumented. and over half of those came here
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and overstayed their visas. and then a percentage of those are hispanics. i think there's always been a lt of finger-pointing at who's to blame and the facts necessarily haven't been being shared the way they should be. >> do you think it's scapegoating? >> yes, i do. >> what do the folks on the panel think about immigration? how important was immigration for you up there? >> i think legal immigration is not a problem. it's the illegal immigration we have a problem with. and they have ignored the laws for so many years, it's gotten out of hand. they have to get back to the rule of law in this country. >> let me ask a broader question, because i think this gets to how people might be feeling here in kenosha, and senator, you can jump in here, but i'm just curious at a really broad level, how many people are optimistic about this country right now? raise your hand. how many people are pessimistic about this country right now. >> how do you folks up there,
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how do you feel about the first month of this new administration, how donald trump has been in this transition? do you feel like it's given you more or less hope? >> i think he's shaking things up a little bit and i kind of like it. things need to be shook up a little bit. both parties need to be shook up a little bit. >> you're ageing, richard? >> i'm optimistic. >> you're optimistic? >> and i'm usually not optimistic. this time i am. >> what do you mean, usually not optimistic? >> well, look at the past. look at what we've had for the last few presidencies. it's just a lot of bogus rhetoric. >> did you feel that way about george w. bush? >> yes. >> you didn't like him? >> no. >> and you voted for barack obama? >> yes. >> and you're disappointed with him? >> yes. >> and now you're hopeful about the future? >> yes. >> senator sanders, are you optimistic or pessimistic about
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this country? >> running around the country as a candidate for president, i became extremely optimistic, because all over this country we had these very large rallies and met with large groups and small groups, people like people who are here today. and the decency of the american people and the love of country of the american people and the desire to make this country a better place in which to live and raise families really blew me away. it really did. so in that sense, especially among the younger people, i am extremely optimistic about the future of this country. on the other hand, there is some rhetoric coming from mr. trump, which needless to say, disturbs me very, very much. his campaign, which was based on bigotry, bothers me. this cabinet that he's appointing, it seems the major qualification is to have to be a billionaire. and i don't know that this is -- you know, when you talk about taking on the establishment, you're not really talking about
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bringing goldman sachs into your administration. you're not talking about bringing the head of exxonmobil into your administration. you know, you're not talking about, you know, attacking a guy named chuck jones, who is the head of the local steelworkers in indianapolis. that's not taking on the establishment. that's bringing the establishment right into your administration. so in that sense, i worry very much. >> i think he's talking about the do-nothing congress and the bureaucrats we have in washington, d.c. that keep ignoring everybody. not that kind of establishment. those guys know how to get things done and we've got to give them a chance. if they don't, we'll get them out and put somebody else in in four years. we'll all still be here. we're not going anywhere. >> this is an interesting point. ultimately, what i find most interesting about how the next four years develop is that, right? which ultimately, is the proof in the pudding? is it that life is better for folks in kenosha and wisconsin
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and across the greater industrial midwest and the u.s. is that going to be the test ultimately of the political success of this person that we've just elected president of the united states. i want to thank our audience, our panels, our participants, and of course, thank you to senator bernie sanders. [ applause ] that does it for us here in kenosha, wisconsin. there's much more on our website, good night. how not to run for president and win. let's play "hardball." good evening. i'm chris matthews in washington. when donald trump rode down the escalator at trump tower on june 16th, 2016


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